Didn't Jesus and the trinity exist before NT?

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Didn't Jesus and the trinity exist before NT?

Postby DukeTwicep » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:37 pm

Didn't they? I never thought about this, but it actually means a lot. If Jesus was present from the beginning of the Bible or, rather, if the trinity was the same back then - wouldn't they all be responsible for all atrocities committed by God?
It's a little funny as the part where Jesus tells the people who wants to stone the woman, "The one without sin shall cast the first stone", and then he goes on to say that the woman should go and sin no more. One wonders if he simply didn't cast a stone because Jesus wasn't free from sin as he, as a part of the trinity, broke the 6th commandment a helluva lot of times.
If it's true that the trinity existed before NT, does that bring more complications?
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Postby DjVortex » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:10 pm

According to mainstream Christianity the trinity has always existed (they will argue that in the old testament God often uses plural ot refer to himself). Which, of course, from the point of view of Christianity makes sense (because Jesus and the Spirit were not created between the testaments).

Obviously according to mainstream Judaism there's no such a thing as a trinity.

As for Jesus being responsible for everything that God is, well, obviously. According to mainstream Christianity Jesus and God are one. There isn't one without the other.
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Postby Skept » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:12 pm

Here is a list of trinities in various religions:

The Classical Greek Olympic triad of Zeus (king of the gods), Athena (goddess of war and intellect) and Apollo (god of the sun, culture and music)

The Delian chief triad of Leto (mother), Artemis (daughter) and Apollo (son) and second Delian triad of Athena, Zeus and Hera

The Olympian demiurgic triad in platonic philosophy, made up of Zeus (considered the Zeus [king of the gods] of the Heavens), Poseidon (Zeus of the seas) and Pluto/Hades (Zeus of the underworld), all considered in the end to be a monad and the same Zeus.

The Titanic demiurgic triad of Helios (sun when in the sky), Apollo (sun seen in our world) and Dionysus (god of mysteries, "sun" of the underworld) (see Phaed in Dionysus and the Titans)

The ancient Egyptian triads:
Osiris (husband), Isis (wife), and Horus (son)

The Theban triad of Amun, Mut and Khonsu

The Memphite triad of Ptah, Sekhmet and Nefertem

The Elephantine triad of Khnum (god of the source of the Nile river), Satet (the personification of the floods of the Nile river), and Anuket (the Goddess of the nile river).

The sungod Ra, whose form in the morning was Kheper, at noon Re-Horakhty and in the evening Atum, and many others.

The Hellenistic Egypt triad of Isis, Alexandrian Serapis and Harpocrates (a Hellenized version of the already referred Isis-Osiris-Horus triad), though in the early Ptolemaic period Serapis, Isis and Apollo (who was though sometimes identified with Horus) were preferred.

The Roman Capitoline Triad of Jupiter (father), Juno (wife), and Minerva (daughter)

The Roman pleibian triad of Ceres, Liber Pater and Libera (or its Greek counterpart with Demeter, Dionysos and Kore)

The Julian triads of the early Roman Principate:

Venus Genetrix, Divus Iulius, and Clementia Caesaris

Divus Iulius, Divi filius and Genius Augusti

Eastern variants of the Julian triad, e.g. in Asia Minor: Dea Roma, Divus Iulius and Genius Augusti (or Divi filius)

The Matres (Deae Matres/Dea Matrona) in Roman mythology

The Fates, Moirae or Furies in Greek and Roman mythology: Clotho or Nona the Spinner, Lachesis or Decima the Weaver, and Atropos or Morta
the Cutter of the Threads of Life. One's Lifeline was Spun by Clotho,
Woven into the tapestry of Life by Lachesis, and the thread Cut by Atropos.

The Hooded Spirits or Genii Cucullati in Gallo-Roman times

The main supranational triad of the ancient Lusitanian mythology and religion and Portuguese neo-pagans made up of the couple Arentia and Arentius, Quangeius and Trebaruna, followed by a minor Gallaecian-Lusitanian triad of Bandua (under many natures), Nabia and Reve female nature: Reva

The sisters Uksáhkká, Juksáhkká and Sáhráhkká in Sámi mythology.

The triad of Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat in the time of Mohammed (Holy Qu'ran (Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation), Surah 53:19-22 )

Lugus (Esus, Toutatis and Taranis) in Celtic mythology

Odin, Vili and Ve in Germanic mythology

The Norns in Germanic mythology

The Triglav in Slavic mythology

Perkunas (god of heaven), Patrimpas (god of earth) and Pikuolis (god of death) in Prussian mythology

The Zorya or Auroras in Slavic mythology

The Charites or Graces in Greek mythology

The One, the Thought (or Intellect) and the Soul in Neoplatonism

The Christian Trinity

(source: wikipedia)
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Postby bijane » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:08 pm

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

So, unless the world began post-NT, then I'd say Jesus was definitely present.
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Postby eimerian » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:57 am

Thats actually one of the many ways to dismantle Christianity. You can see how Christ is basically pushed back in time more and more when you read the NT books in the correct chronological order.

Pre-Gospel: I remember Robert Price talking about how the earliest Christians must have believed that Jesus became Christ at the resurrection. Im not sure though. Must look this one up...

The earliest Gospel Mark: Jesus becomes the Christ when he is baptized by John the Babtist (thats why Mark begins with the baptism)

Matthew and Luke: Both edit Mark to make it fit their theological views. Both add a birth narrative, showing that Jesus was born as the Christ.

John: In the beginning was the logos (=Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Nuff said.
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